A heated discussion over at DrugMonkey/PhysioProf's place about the value of the PI still being able to do experiments.
As I've said before, I don't think a PI who ditches benchwork for grant-writing is making a mistake. I'm generally in agreement with PhysioProf that if your unique talent in the lab is grant- and paper-writing, then you shouldn't be spending your time doing work that could be farmed out to others. I have a great deal of respect for GradAdvisor, even though she never did benchwork while I was in the lab.
HOWEVER. One thing that helped me maintain that respect through some angry stretches was that if I was having problems with my microscope images, she could pop her head in and in 5 minutes twiddle the right knobs the right way to improve my images far past what I had accomplished in the last frustrating two hours.
Which is to say, go ahead and abandon the bench, all ye PIs who readeth here. Your talents are better used elsewhere.
But don't forget that your minions, laboring over in situ hybridization, will one day wonder why they take orders from someone who has never shown herself capable of pipetting.
14 years ago
8 comments:
if I was having problems with my microscope images, she could pop her head in and in 5 minutes twiddle the right knobs the right way to improve my images far past what I had accomplished in the last frustrating two hours.
I thought I explained pretty clearly that troubleshooting, designing, and interpreting experiments are relatively independent skills from sitting down and performing experiments. I do this same kind of thing all the fucking time in my lab, even in situations where I could not sit down and perform an experiment from scratch.
I was going off of this point:
We really, really, really needs to get past the canard that it is a failing of mentorship and lab leadership if a PI does not (or even cannot) sit down at the bench side by side with a trainee ("apprentice") and teach the trainee the physical process of performing a particular technique.
Look, it's complicated. Some kinds of troubleshooting require in-depth knowledge of the experimental technique, while others are more big-picture. My point is that if the PI can't do any of the first kind of troubleshooting, lab members will resent her for it.
I know of a few labs where the PI is supervising techniques that she/he has never performed (which is fine; that's how science grows), and as a result has given bad advice to trainees (not so fine). That's where the relationship can go sour.
I don't think we really disagree on this. I'd be happy with a PI who (like you) spends plenty of time in lab on a near-daily basis, talking with people about their experiments but not actually doing any herself.
My grad Advisor would never have been able to improve my images if she hadn't had extensive experience with that technique, though. And I'll I'm saying is that some hands-on troubleshooting that demonstrates that the PI actually knows a thing or do about benchwork improves her reputation.
It is dangerously short sighted for the trainee to dismiss the PI's relevant skill set because he doesn't exhibit some particular bench talent. I've seen this attitude expressed a couple of times now in the ongoing conversation and it is really perplexing.
It's interesting how many of these discussions seems to fall along a management/labor breakline. I don't say that a PI should have to be able to do every single thing in the lab. I do think it's a bad idea for the PI not to know how basic pieces of lab equipment work, or the approximate purpose of a lab protocol. How are you going to train people if you don't understand what they're doing? How are you going to help troubleshoot? How are you going to spot fraud?
It is dangerously short sighted for the trainee to dismiss the PI's relevant skill set because he doesn't exhibit some particular bench talent.
I don't care that Advisor didn't know about Flippers. He's constantly engaged in every aspect of people's experiments. Most people don't dismiss their PI's skill set because he doesn't know a particular lab skill; they dismiss it because he doesn't know ANY lab skills.
And yes, those PIs exist. And they're generally awful.
It's interesting how many of these discussions seems to fall along a management/labor breakline.
Guess you can call me a scab, then.
I don't think this post makes you a scab; it makes you mature.
I think a lot of the frustration people have with the existence of bad mentors, though, is--why are these people still around? If a faculty member has a reputation for screwing over his minions, why isn't he prevented from getting his hands on new grad students? Instead, all of the burden falls on the student to intuit who will and won't be a good mentor. I'm fine with people taking charge of their education, and seeking out what they need, etc etc. But I don't think it's a great idea for a system to rely entirely on 23 year olds exercising good judgment about who would make a good boss for the next 5 years. It would be nice if every now and then, a particularly poor mentor were forbidden from chewing up any more students. But the system does not work to prevent that from happening.
My comment got too long. I'm making it my post for today instead.
I have had two experiences - one in gradlab and one in postdoc lab. And they were at different ends of the spectrum.
In gradlab, prof couldn't do anything. This will become a huge problem in about 3 months. As other "posters" have suggested, students should be kept away from advisors like him. Well, it is happening. Not by his or anyone else' pressure - but by word of mouth. All of his postdocs are leaving - despite his best efforts - and all of his new recruit grad students have left his group. So, now there is a knowledge vacuum.
In postdoc lab, it is the opposite. I wouldn't say prof could do an experiment from start to finish. But I would say he knows the "top 10 most common mistakes" (or something along those lines) and how to fix them. He also knows how to work every single piece of equipment in the lab - even though he is well over 55-60ish. I have found his trouble-shooting ability extremely helpful.
I think the only way to deal with this disparity is to talk among each other. The administration is never going to do anything.
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