Good old Blog Fodder the Tech, who astounded me with his many iniquities before shaping up as a reasonable lab member, has announced his plans to attend graduate school.
BF had previously mentioned grad school as a possible future, but had acknowledged that he was just as interested in business school (poll: which requires a better grasp of basic arithmetic?). Now, however, he is actually studying for the general and biology GREs (and taking a Princeton Review course). Last week he came into lab on Saturday to do a couple of small lab tasks and grind away at a practice exam.
The problem is, of course, that BF lacks the fundamental curiosity, let alone the determination, to make it through grad school. He asks questions....about the tasks he is given. Perhaps once a month, he asks a question about the research presented in lab meeting, but these questions are not typically experimental in nature--they are more likely to run along the lines of, "Does this relate to phenomenon X that I read about in Science/the Times/the Economist?" Sometimes it's an interesting question, but it's pretty much never what I would expect from a first-year grad student--i.e., a question about experimental details, or whether one could follow up with Experiment Z, or even just what the heck the significance of an observation is.
(And no, this is not because he fears me; he doesn't ask these questions of anyone.)
When he told me recently that he was studying up for the GREs in preparation for grad school applications this fall, I asked him more about his research interests. In the past he has mentioned labs that do fairly similar work to our lab, but this time he mentioned some labs that are further afield. It's fine for your subject affinity to shift over time, but I think in this instance he's probably just hoping that the work of Other Labs is more interesting to him than the work of This Lab.
In any case, I tried, gently, to dissuade him from Ph.D. programs. I pointed out that if he's still thinking about going into business in some capacity (the business end of a pharma company, for example), then an M.S. would likely give him the training he needs for much less hassle.
"I just figure that if I'm going to grad school, I might as well go the whole hog," he replied. "Besides, I'd be happy to spend six years in [City With His Dream Grad Program]."
Blink. Blink.
Despite BF's many failings as a scientist, I have developed a certain fondness for him, the way one does with household items. So I should probably try again to steer him in the direction of the M.S., or even an entire life re-evaluation. (Note to readers, BF is loaded, so the cost of doing an M.S. should not be a hurdle.)
On the other hand, it's not as though he's coming to me asking for advice or help, and often it is easy to irritate people by profferring unasked-for advice, or so I am told. Since I've already suggested the M.S. to no effect, I could just wash my hands of the situation.
Still, though, I dread the moment that BF asks Advisor for a recommendation. The problem is that BF likely won't ask until it's actually grad school application time, i.e. November, by which time it will be harder for him to change his plans in response to Advisor's anticipated reaction ("You are applying to what?")
So I feel as though the Right Thing To Do would be to sit BF down and try again to persuade him to think this all through. It might be a waste of my breath, because he has a certain unshakeable confidence, but I think it's worth a try, on the theory that a little effort now might save some misguided university the cost of his tuition and stipend for 2-3 squandered years. Have any readers ever successfully talked someone out of applying to Ph.D. programs? Particularly someone who is a bit stubborn and ignorant, and perhaps also very bad at math?
15 years ago
31 comments:
Why the pussyfooting? Why don't you just tell him baldly that you don't think he has what it takes to be a scientist?
I wouldn't have been "nice" either. Harsh reality is what BF needs. I'm tired of students who just want to be told they are smart, without working hard to gain the knowledge. They pay for grades, they don't pay to learn something from me. I'm in a particularly bad university for serious grade inflation, but it really starts in high school where they get points for breathing. All the coddling is not doing them any favors (or future employers!), and they really are lacking fair assessments of their abilities and knowledge. jc
I'd suggest at least pointing out to BF that you should line up your rec letter writers over the summer. I imagine it'd be better to find out in July that no one will write you a good letter instead of in November.
Is he still going to be working in your lab for a while? If so, I'd actually be cautious about how you go forward. You don't want him to sabotage your lab, and sadly, I do know of an instance where that occurred.
If he's out of your lab and can't get back in, it might be worth a shot to be more blunt. I have been successful at discouraging several students from applying to graduate programs, mostly by talking about numbers: how many people apply and are accepted, how many hours a week you're expected to work in graduate school, how many people apply to jobs and are accepted, and even how much money you make in and out of grad school.
I was, however, unsuccessful with one particular student. He kept on using bad arguments for why he wanted to get a doctoral degree (e.g., naive ideas about the academic job market), and I pointed out gently why they were bad. I told him I could write him a letter of recommendation but I would have to mention some of the concerns from when he worked in my lab and it might be better to find someone else. He still asked me, and I was honest in the letter.
Somehow he eventually found one school desperate enough to take him. We'll see how it goes. But I feel like I did my best to let him know what he's getting himself into, and how he handles it is his problem.
I'm with Anon#3. It's wholly possible that he thinks there's a 1:1 ratio between beginning graduate school and getting a nice faculty position. Perhaps if he knew the odds, and that it would involve - *gasp* - effort, he might change his plans.
I've noticed a pattern (which may be confined to my little corner of the world) where being completely surrounded by people who have PhDs makes one feel inadequate with their lowly bachelor's degree. I know a lot of techs who felt compelled to get at least a Masters degree, or try for a PhD, since not having one seemed to make them the odd scientist out. (And fwiw, I personally think that a Master's means diddly-squat for being a tech, but maybe I'm missing something.)
BF could be thinking about a PhD, or the MBA you mention, as a reaction to feeling like he doesn't measure up, and not because he has any real interest in either program.
People who have unrealistic expectations and who don't do their "homework" before plunging into a new endeavor typically don't do well in graduate school, especially Ph.D. programs in which they are expected to come up with original ideas, organize their plans, and carry them through with little prodding.
I know several people in my organization (govt lab) just like BF who have unrealistic and inflated opinions of themselves. They all happen to be male and somewhat older (>30 yr). One (let's call him Mr. Do-Nothing) applied to and was (amazingly) accepted into a Ph.D. program at a local university while still holding his government job (the government actually sends some of these bozos for "training", including getting advanced degrees). Within one semester he was kicked out of grad school (I could never find out the exact reason, but imagined that it was a front-end crash between his Ego and Reality).
So now Mr. DN is back full-time doing what he always did--nothing. He and his fellow "do-nothings" strut around like roosters pretending they are involved in "important work". In meetings, they pontificate as if they have equal credentials to the PIs. I look on in amazement, thinking "you just flunked out of grad school at a university ranked in the bottom tier of Southern US universities and can still act as if you are a Nobel Laureate?". Mind-boggling.
Actually, I'd be quite happy to write them a letter in the hopes that if they vacate their positions, we might actually get someone capable and willing to work.
Could you perhaps drop Advisor a hint that BF is applying to grad programs and that you're concerned they're out of his reach?
I don't know that it's pussyfooting, exactly. The thing is: (a) He's not asking me for advice; (b) he will still be in the lab for many months; and (c) I'm not sure it does a lot of good to tear down someone's plan without helping him find a new one--many people respond to this by focusing on Plan A, not by coming up with Plan B.
Dr D, sounds like it's time for the government to have some sort of standard like, "If you fail out of a program we sponsored you at, you are also out of a job"! that's pretty funny/sad.
Last Anon, I was thinking of telling my Advisor so's he could deal with it, but that feels a bit like passing the buck. Might still be a good solution, though, since he's more likely to listen to advice from a higher authority.
I think you should mind your own business, and restrict your mentoring to the research program you and the tech are participating in. There will be plenty of people and events in this tech's future that will--if necessary--disabuse him of the idea that he has a future as an independent scientist. There is absolutely no possible upside for you to be the conveyor of that message.
This doesn't sound like the same sort of situation, but I'd like to relay my story of being told I wouldn't make it in grad school by someone who knew very little about me.
In my first job out of undergrad I spoke with my PI (with whom I rarely interacted) about my plans for grad school. She told me that I ought to reconsider those plans. I told her I had thought a lot about it, and I couldn't think of anything that was a better match for my skills and personality, and that if she didn't think I was a match for grad school, what could she see me doing instead? She had nothing for me. It is my impression that if someone has thought long enough and feels they know someone well enough to tell them what they shouldn't do for a career, then they should have some idea of what that person might be better inclined towards. I think it would be fair for you to talk with him (maybe at the coffee shop again) to discuss what he *wants* to do and what he might have an aptitude for (like business school, if that's what you think is a good match for him), but I don't think it's fair for you to tell him he isn't cut out for grad school because I don't think you can really know that. If we could tell ahead of time who will and won't succeed in grad school then admissions would be a lot easier!
There are many reasons BF might not perform too well in your lab but might still go on to do well in grad school. A field that uses a different skillset than your field might be a better fit for him. A different field might be more in line with his interests and thus he would work harder at it. Another big difference I've found is that some people mean a different thing when they say "grad school". I interviewed one person who had done a 2 years MS degree completely online and he thought that experience was "grad school". He was shocked when I told him my PhD program lasts 6 years on average.
If you're worried that BF has unrealistic expectations, I think it's a great idea for you to chat with him about his expectations, and let him know what to expect in terms of career outcomes post-PhD (types, salaries, chances of landing faculty positions, industry opportunities) etc.
Do you really think that you know BF well enough to say that he won’t succeed in grad school? He has surprised you, no? He seems to have improved — a lot, judging from where he started. There are a number of stories in the blogosphere of successful scientists that were screw-ups as undergrads. Not to mention the handful of good scientists that I work with in real life who would fit into this category.
If I were you, I would encourage him to speak to Advisor about his plans sooner rather than later, if you think that getting a recommendation from Advisor will be a problem. Otherwise, you’ve shared with him your opinion, so now you need to step back and let him make his own decisions.
And Juniper, your response is truly surprising, considering what I know of your story from your blog.
I don't think you should really bring it up with him. It probably won't go over well, and he probably won't listen to you anyway. Somewhere down the line, he'll figure out for himself that he doesn't have what it takes (or maybe he'll never get in in the first place).
Honestly, I don't feel you could possibly gain anything by telling him he shouldn't apply for grad school. Why? Obviously you hold no respect for him, as you clearly express when you compare your fondness of him to how one feels towards a household item. Toaster? Or perhaps a favorite chair? And as Comrade PhysioProf said, there will be plenty of people and events in BF's future that may appropriately forsake his lofty ambition. As it lies now, you have no place to tell someone they aren't gifted or talented enough to even think about applying. To be frank, it really reeks of conceit and elitism...both things I'm sure you are not, right?
Oh DrJ, I feel for you! I've got an undergrad just like this in my lab...but worse! Not only does she want to go to grad school, she wants to be an MD/PhD! She wants to go into one of the most difficult fields of medicine, taking many many years of intense training. Her main problem is maintaining focus...she tends to daydream and not think about what she's doing and has made some major, dangerous, costly mistakes because of it. I shudder to think what could happen if she actually manages to make her way through med school. I probably should have fired her months ago, but she's a volunteer anyway, and she takes a lot of the small menial tasks off out my desk so I can focus on bigger things. Also, we helped her apply for some summer funding and she got it, so I don't want to back out on that. One of my major problems with this situation is that I know she's working with us to get some experience to put on her CV, and to get a recommendation letter. The thing is, I know I'm not going to be willing to write her a good recommendation, so she's wasting her time. My plan is to tell her that when her summer project is over, but I also want to try to let her down easy. I did try once before to suggest that she may not be cut out for her chosen profession (after a couple of particularly egregious mistakes), but she responded that she now recognized it was something she needed to work on. So I don't have any good advice for you, I just wanted to comiserate. Good luck with Blog Fodder...at least he has a back up plan you can encourage! My undergrad has a hobby that could potentially become a career, but apparently mentors in that field have also complained about her lack of attention. I'm not sure there are any good careers for people who just zone out... (And no, I can't suggest checking for ADD and starting on ritalin or anything...she doesn't believe in psychiatric medications.)
I'm currently supervising one of these characters. For a PhD. I advised him strongly against grad school as an undergrad, yet here he is, in my lab (and not paid for by me). He scraped through the candidacy exam on the second attempt mainly due to the chair of the candidacy panel (who is required to not know the student or their area well, and has the final say) deciding that he had the right attitude. He is wearing my patience to the bone! And I don't think it was kind to him because he is really struggling and clearly feels bad about it, he's just... not willing to quit or to seek alternatives. OR to do what I actually advise him to do in lab.
I would tell Advisor, just casually, that BF is considering grad school. Just so that Advisor has a heads-up. But I really don't advise doing much else unless BF asks YOU.
Well, I have to say, it's so not up to you to talk him out of grad school. He's your advisor's trainee, not yours, you can refuse to write a letter if you don't feel he's grad school material (if he asks you), otherwise give your honest opinion to Advisor. You've given your opinion, leave it at that. Unless you have a real friendship (sounds like you don't) it's not really your business. Do give Advisor a head's up, but otherwise, drop it.
I can't think of a single instance when well-intentioned advice has been a successful means of dissuading somebody from doing a PhD. I do know of several unsuccessful intstances, however, and the advised always end up resenting the advice-givers, especially when they turn out to be right.
Appropriate questions is part of what can be developed... Once you've pointed out that a masters is a reasonable first step for trying out this career path, I'd stay out of it and let it work itself out as he advances.
Hm, quite some dissent among the commentariat. Of course I can wait for other people--our advisor, admissions committees, future PIs--to deal with the problem. I think my question is really about--is that the kindest thing to do?
For example, I can wait for my PI to tell him that his rec letter won't be stellar. Let's say BF takes this as an opportunity to reconsider his plans. He will already have sunk time and effort into GREs and applications, when he might have been better off spending that time on b-school apps, or just pondering his life future.
I don't consider myself the final arbiter on this guy's life, but I don't think he has anything even close to what it takes. We've got an undergrad in the lab who is about 12 times more engaged in the lab's questions, even though he is younger and less informed. For a year, a long time ago, I teched in a lab that did very different work from what I was ultimately interested in--and I was still highly engaged in understanding the techniques, the questions, the pursuits of the lab. So I don't think the "he's just not in the right field" is a very good reason, especially because when he joined the lab he said he was interested in the types of things this lab does (and mentioned specific future PIs he might want to work with.)
I agree with the general point that several commenters made, that advising him when he hasn't requested more advice could create friction and not accomplish much. So I'll give a shot at letting our PI know that BF is planning to apply to grad schools, and see what he does. If Advisor isn't willing to be blunt, then I'll reconsider.
I'm not sure it does a lot of good to tear down someone's plan without helping him find a new one--many people respond to this by focusing on Plan A, not by coming up with Plan B.
I don't think this tendency is necessarily a bad thing. When some people are slapped in the face with others' doubts in their abilities, they respond by substantively reviewing their approaches to their goals and multiplying their efforts to prove their doubters wrong.
If I were BF, and some well-meaning postdoc said, "Face it, kid, you're never going to amount to anything," I would swallow my tears and ask why. Then I would improve my math skills, learn to ask more insightful and productive questions about experiments, and develop reasons for beginning a PhD well beyond "I would love to live in this one city and I may as well go whole-hog anyway"-- along with an address of every other constructive criticism within this post. If one really wants to be an academic scientist, what else is one gonna do? Pout? What's that going to accomplish? And, as someone who has already done a stint in graduate school, I know first-hand that he ought to be doing that anyway!
Proving your doubters wrong takes real work, though. If you are blunt with BF, and he yells "I'll show you!" only to make no modifications of his purportedly lazy behavior, then, yeah, there's nothing admirable or advantageous in his clinging to Plan A.
And Juniper, your response is truly surprising, considering what I know of your story from your blog.
I sympathize with your surprise. However, just because I'm open about being an erstwhile fuck-up, and just because I'm fully aware that many people here probably don't think that I have what it takes to be a successful scientist doesn't mean that I can't argue that blunt dissuasion has its utility.
Lots of people quickly dismiss people like me. That's reality. I don't relish this, but it's not going to change. The sooner someone like me learns to constructively deal with this reality, the better. BF might truly be as unpromising as Dr. Jekyll & Mrs. Hyde thinks he is. There's also the possibility that she's dead wrong because she doesn't know him well enough and BF is like me. Who knows? That's where I was coming from when I asked my question.
Moreover, I tend to think that "tact" in this kind of circumstance is disgustingly patronizing. I'm aware, though, that this is largely a feature of my personality. I don't like feeling as if someone mistakenly thinks I'm not smart enough to be able to tell when I'm being coddled or dicked around "for my own good". With regard to something as important as one's career, especially? Not kind at all. Just my two cents.
I agree with the general point that several commenters made, that advising him when he hasn't requested more advice could create friction and not accomplish much.
I forgot to add that this makes sense to me, in terms of being cautious for the sake of your workplace environment.
If I were your advisor, I would think it odd if you came to me to tell me about BF's plans, because it's BF's business, not yours.
I agree with CPP. The only thing you should do is let BF know that he should give his letter writers plenty of notice.
I also don't think you're in any position to say that he shouldn't be applying to grad school. I don't think at that you can fully gauge how successful someone is going to be. You don't know if he is unhappy and if in a different environment may shine. If he has the pre-requisites, marks and determination to apply, I don't think there is any reason for you to discourage him, nor is it your place to, even if your advisor does or does not support his application.
I'm not sure why some people seem to think that I should never judge another human being's probability of success in grad school. What, exactly, do you imagine admissions committees do? I've sat on one. Let me assure you, the fact that a candidate has "the pre-requisites, marks and determination to apply" means roughly jackshit. A whole bunch of people have those. That doesn't mean that they won't get to grad school and fail, epically. The goal of any admissions committee is do identify people who have the genuine excitement and interest in research to get through grad school.
I've worked with this guy for almost a year. I've been a postdoc for 1.5 years after a successful graduate career. This does, in fact, give me some qualifications for judging someone else's likelihood of success in graduate school--and BF's is close to zero. Everyone in the lab thinks the same thing, even the lab manager. The question is who would be the best person to convey this thought. I'm willing to agree that our PI would be a better conduit than me, both because of his position of authority, and because he's the person who would actually be writing the make-or-break recommendation letter.
I've talked with my advisor in the past about BF. He completely agrees that BF does not belong in grad school. He also thinks that it's in BF's best interest for him to find a career that suits him. That is why I think my advisor would want to know sooner, rather than later, about BF's plans. It is very awkward to tell someone at the 11th hour that you will write them a crappy recommendation; averting this situation is what I'm hoping to accomplish.
In that case, I would then give your Advisor the heads up, and perhaps they will take BF aside and talk to them, or at least be aware of what might be coming down the pipe.
But as you've already raised this with him once, I'd forget about doing it a second time. As you note yourself, he has an unshakable confidence, so he's not likely to listen to you a second time 'round. Besides which, you don't want to make things strained in the last remaining months of his lab time, for any of you.
I guess my feeling is that, if you've tried to talk to BF and he won't listen, that's already a quality that's really useful for getting through grad school: ignoring the doubters.
I've seen students who were late bloomers suddenly "get it" halfway through grad school. It does happen. Sometimes from harsh feedback. However, I think it's really lame to expect that someone else will say something eventually! This is a person's life we're talking about, not to mention what's good for science.
I agree about educating interested parties on the real numbers, whether they asked or not. I certainly didn't know to ask, and while people told me not to go to grad school, I ignored them in the absence of concrete data. Perhaps if I had seen the numbers (which didn't really exist at the time, it turns out), I would have considered other career options more seriously when it was really practical to choose something else without too much heartache.
I completely disagree with CPP in the sense that do I think it's part of our job to be concerned about who gets into grad school. They could be taking a slot from someone who has real talent.
However, I think if your adviser already agrees that this guy is not cut out for it, then you should let your adviser know that he should have a tough talk with this tech, sooner rather than later. You've tried, he won't listen to you. And ultimately it is his life to throw away if that's what he wants to choose.
This is such an excellent topic that so many academics (and surely non-academics) face. How do you guide a student whose goals seem completely unmatched to their talents? I think talking about the numbers (as per anon #3) is great advice. At least the guy will be informed going into the situation.
I also *wish, wish, wish* professors would give their students and postdocs performance reviews! It would be as simple as sitting the students down, telling them a, b, and c are your strengths, d and e are things you need to improve. What are your goals? In that case, you should work on x, y, z. It would be so good for the professor, the student, science, and the whole academic system. If done on a regular basis, you probably wouldn't be facing your current "cruel to be kind" dilemna with this kid.
That said, that kind of performance review would probably be very poorly recieved if given by you, unrequested. But maybe you could take a more subtle approach and discuss the interests and skill set that you view as essential for PhD students. Maybe he would reevaluate his decision? Maybe even ask where you think he stands on some of those skills?
I agree with CPP. It's the PI's job to tell BF the bad news. You should encourage BF to engage the prospective letter-writers as early as possible and, honestly, encourage BF to become a better scientist. As others have noted, some wonderful scientists finally "get it" late in undergrad/early in grad school. BF may be one of those that never really cared about ANYTHING before and is "figuring it out" (maybe through your leading by example...) in his/her early 20's. That's a hell of a lot earlier than a significant portion of humanity so that's OK.
All of this especially applies if BF is smart enough to have coasted in classes until now. The boredom factor induces a big "duh" personality in those rare cases...and if they apply themselves they can REALLY surprise you.
I love receiving performance reviews. We're supposed to get them every year at work, but they are very time intensive for my PI so she has only done the one-on-one discussion/feedback part once in the last few years.
All of this especially applies if BF is smart enough to have coasted in classes until now.
I'm not saying you have to read the whole history of the blog before commenting, because that would be silly, but let me assure you that this is not the case. A couple of links in the post make this clear...
Had to throw in my two cents, and it got a little long.
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