Tuesday, November 3, 2009

How does your lab grow?

What's your lab's composition? In the recent issue of Neuron, Nobel laureate David Hubel argues that the shape of a lab has changed radically, and for the worse. In today's labs, he writes,
Leading each group is a senior scientist, a full professor, or an assistant professor who can expect to be promoted to tenure in a few years. Under the leader come post-doctoral fellows, graduate students, and a few research assistants. This form of organization is in sharp contrast with what prevailed a generation ago, when a group consisted usually of one person, or two or three, and there was less distinction, if there was any, between group members.
He goes on to say that as a result of today's division of labor, the PI's time is taken up with grants, committee work, teaching, refereeing, and lab management--rarely experiments. In contrast, when Hubel started working at Harvard,
Everyone in the group worked alone or with one other postdoc, on projects they thought up themselves and carried through independently.
Thus everyone was responsible for his own experiments, analysis, and writing, and would use other group members as critical sounding boards.

Hubel argues that the old way was preferable because:
a) Postdocs learned much more independence, as they had to think through projects and data themselves rather than being directed.

b) One thinks best about science when one does one's own experiments, as opposed to dividing the bench and grant chores between two people.

c) Scientists, who are selected for their skills at benchwork, get to continue doing benchwork.

He doesn't point out the corollary to (c), that because good scientists may be bad managers, this system avoids placing such people in positions of power over scads of postdocs. But to me this is a critical point. Numerous blog posts from multiple bloggers detail their frustrations with poor management, whether it comes in the form of the PI overseeing antibody supplies or being unhelpful with projects and manuscripts.

This is partly a rehash of an old argument: should PIs keep doing experiments? The axis of opinion ranges from PhysioProf's point that PIs are good at thinking big picture, so it's best for them not to waste time on experiments, to Ms. PhD's argument that those who can't do, shouldn't teach (= run a lab). (I do think that PIs who continue with experiments generally have a good grip on their labs, while those who don't have more heterogeneous track records.)

Still, the crux of Hubel's argument, and one that I find interesting, is that scientists should be given greater responsibility for their own research earlier on, as postdocs rather than as assstant professors. Too many postdocs must follow their PI's project "suggestions" and don't have an opportunity to design a project from scratch. This produces a lot of disgruntled postdocs and Mini-Me PIs.

Some institutions, like the Max Planck, do offer junior scientists independent research positions leading only one or two other people. My advisor held this type of position and says it was scientifically the best thing he ever did. But very few such jobs are available today.

Of course the current arrangement is probably higher throughput, because savvy PIs can lead squads of unimaginative postdocs through an exciting research program. And there are doubtless many people who prefer the current design, not least because it facilitates interdisciplinary work. But I agree with Hubel that more independent small research programs populated by relative youngsters (in their 30s!) who would otherwise be postdocs would be a welcome alternative.

I wish that more institutions offered Max Planck-style fellowships. For many, perhaps most, people, these jobs would serve as springboards to more traditional faculty positions, while fostering independence and creativity, and eliminating the "pedigree" aspect of the current postdoc system.

And perhaps a few scientists would discover along the way that they preferred it.

14 comments:

Comrade PhysioProf said...

Hubel's editorial is whiny douche bullshit. It is completely pulled-out-of-the-ass unsupported wackshittery. There is absolutely no empirical support provided by him for his assertion that it was totes awseumly betterer back when he was a young scientist than it is now. It is a disgrace that Neuron published this garbage.

biochem belle said...

There are so many issues here.

The methods available for many projects are so technical that you simply cannot do every experiment yourself.

Postdocs (or grad students) not learning independence is a management issue. Trainees learn to work independently when the PI gives them the room to do so.

With the funding environment and increased focus on % effort and accountability, postdocs are more confined in the questions they can work on. The PI's 'suggestions' are based on specific aims of R01, which have to be addressed before the renewal. That's not to say, however, that postdocs can't stretch the interpretation to head in a new direction.

qaz said...

Some PIs turn out to be great managers. Both my graduate advisor who only had one to three students at a time and my postdoc advisors who had a dozen between the pair of them were great managers. And some PIs turn out to like it. Personally, I much prefer to spend an hour a day on each of six different projects (each being run by a different student). I can come in, see what's happening, talk to the student, work with them through the difficulties and then move on to the next project.

I do some bench work, particularly when teaching a new student. But the fact is that the students are better at bench work than I am. That's the point of teaching. Biochem belle is absolutely right about independence. A good PI leads/carries/drives the student to independence. That's why it's called "training".

I guess you'd have to ask my students if I'm a good manager, but I actually prefer the current system to one where I would have to "turn the knobs" myself.

Dr. Jekyll and Mrs. Hyde said...

I agree that many people prefer the system as it stands (and I am unsurprised that PhysioProf is one of them...) But my point was that a different setup might be preferable for other people. I would prefer to be headed to a small independent position (after say a year of postdoc work) rather than to a continued or second postdoc, because I think I would learn more from some independent failure than from more guided success.

CPP, what's your empirical evidence that things are better now?

HennaHonu said...

I really want to thank you for posting these opportunities. I am a current PhD student and love research. I don't enjoy teaching or service and would love the opportunity to prove myself with my research. Thank you!!!

Candid Engineer said...

I would argue that today's traditional postdoc is a necessary step on the academic ladder to independence. I am *much* more independent now than I ever was as a grad student. Perhaps instead of a different model, we just need an extra step in the current model? Insert *small independent position* in between postdoc and PI?

Ahahahaa, here I am advocating for yet another goddamn step on the path to freedom. Well, not really. I think I'll do just fine making the leap. Go big or go home?

Comrade PhysioProf said...

CPP, what's your empirical evidence that things are better now?

When have I ever made any assertion that would require support by such evidence?

Dr. Jekyll and Mrs. Hyde said...

When have I ever made any assertion that would require support by such evidence?

I guess I thought that when you called his argument bullshit, that meant that you disagreed.

Comrade PhysioProf said...

How does taking Hubel to task for making the empirically unsupported claim that everything was totes awesumly better back in the old days when real scientists twiddled knobs entail taking the position that things are better now? I am surprised you are having difficulty with the logic of this.

Not that it's relevant to Hubel being totally full of pompous self-serving bullshit, but my personal opinion is that things are neither "better" nor "worse" today versus back in Hubel's hoary salad days fantasy world of PI knob-twiddling and single-author papers. Rather, I think that--as in every aspect of human endeavor--the way we do things changes inexorably over time. And it is an inevitable corollary of this inexorable change that prominent old-timers like Hubel will make use of their access to public platforms to berate the practitioners of newer ways as deficient in comparison to themselves and their old-time compadres.

And you are totally kidding yourself if you think that Hubel is just suggesting that there should be more opportunity for PIs who desire to operate on this supposed old-time model, and not making the normative claim that this supposed old-time model is in general better.

DamnGoodTechnician said...

I'm not sure if Hubel thinks a PI should 'be the change they want to see in the world' - sure, sit around in lab and think a lot. I'm sure it's really easy to get funded to do that.

Of course, thinking about scientific questions doesn't cost anything, so perhaps it's a brilliant stratagem.

Dr. Jekyll and Mrs. Hyde said...

Eh, I think we're getting off topic. I never made any claim about better v worse, nor did I say that I agreed with everything Hubel said. I used the post to riff off one facet of his editorial, namely suggesting that more junior/independent positions would be a welcome alternative to extended postdocs doing someone else's grunt work (not that all postdocs are like that, but some are, and some postdocs would benefit from greater independence.) You want to focus on your take-down of old-fartedness, perceived or real, go ahead.

Comrade PhysioProf said...

You want to focus on your take-down of old-fartedness, perceived or real, go ahead.

Then why the fuck did you demand my "empirical evidence that things are better now" in the first place?? You should have let me be!

Dr. Jekyll and Mrs. Hyde said...

Yeah, next time I'll make sure to classify your comments as "Best Not To Be Poked With Sticks" ;)

Ms.PhD said...

Not surprisingly, I completely disagree with CPP. If nothing else, I think the point is that we should continue to discuss these issues. Silencing opinions is not the way to go- what's Hubel going to do if Neuron won't publish his nonsense? Write a profanity-filled blog? ;-)

I like the small-lab model for exactly the reasons Dr.J highlighted: the lack of a top-down structure, the potential for more interaction among lab members, and more independence earlier on. My thesis lab was this way and I think I got better training than anyone I've met who came out of a postdoc-factory style lab. That's my n=1.

@biochem belle, the idea is that you're doing collaborations - these don't have to be within the same lab (factory-model).

re: postdocs heading in a new direction, that's generally NOT possible. Most PIs these days want a strong hold on how their money is spent, and they want all the credit for anything done in their lab. So if you're trying to be independent within that structure, you're either hamstrung for lack of resources, or you're bound to have your best ideas stolen by your PI. Or both. And yes, I'm n=1 for that too.